written by R.J. Stewart - Executive Producer
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 03
SD: I'm going to start with the end. The yellow light that Xena walked off into was not in the shooting script. In the script, she just turns and walks away.
R.J.: It was supposed to be the sunset. I don’t know if it came off as God or —
SD: It felt like it represented much more than a sunset.
R.J.: Well, the whole theme of "Forgiven," is that Xena feels she must earn forgiveness. It can’t be given to her. But, also, she doesn’t want to be forgiven because she knows that what she did in the past is unforgivable. When you think of the things she did in the past, they were pretty gruesome. What she did to Callisto and all the things that Callisto went on to do, were obviously Xena’s fault. What she did to Lao Ma’s son, Ming T’ien, and all the other Callistos and Ming T’iens out there who we don’t cover. She’s a war criminal who’s turned good! And she doesn't want to be forgiven because the great motivating factor for her to do good, is to know that she’s not forgiven.
SD: And Tara?
R.J.: Xena sees in Tara, someone who doesn’t want to forgive herself. But Xena knows this kid can forgive herself. And if she does, she can have a life.
SD: How much has she done compared to Xena! - “You want to compare bad deeds. I’ll bury ya.”
R.J.: Right. So the story is really about Xena trying to get forgiveness for Gabrielle and Tara. You notice in the teaser, Xena says, “No urn can do that. It comes from within.” The priest then talks about some people not being strong enough to face their own demons and then how the urn helps them. He asks if they can understand this. And Gabrielle says, “I do.” Right there, Xena says to herself, “Okay. If my friend, who I love so much, can feel a sense of forgiveness from this urn, then I’m gonna go out and get it for her.”
SD: That’s why she took the job?
R.J.: That’s right. And then Tara comes into it who’s very much like Gabrielle. They can be forgiven for what they've done and Xena can’t.
SD: That was beautifully shot. First we saw Tara's face, then Gabrielle’s. And for a fleeting second I thought, “Xena’s next!” Then the camera angle changes and we see a shadow pass over Gabrielle and Tara.
R.J.: Yeah — that was very well done!
SD: The looks between Xena and Gabrielle - there's lots of speculation about what each of them was thinking. Did you know that Xena was going to be this dark a character when she was first conceived?
R.J.: That was her attraction. When I conceived of Callisto, I was obviously saying Xena did things to people in her past that were horrible. Then she got an order for 22 episodes and suddenly she's Miss Goody Two-Shoes. In “The Debt,” we saw just how dark she had been.
SD: Back to “Forgiven” — the fights between Tara and Gabrielle. First the one in the bar.
R.J.: It was a barroom brawl. We wanted to show that this kid is a dirty, vicious fighter. If she had not fought dirty, Gabrielle would have beat her. And, Gabrielle fights with a staff, so she’s not a barroom fighter. So I thought it would be okay if she got beat in this fight if this gal fought dirty. The second fight was the emotional one.
SD: We’ve seen Gabrielle take out a trained soldier with two swipes of her staff. And yet, she was pounding away on Tara. Was she holding back?
RJ: Yeah. First of all, Tara’s really tough. Gabrielle wants to hurt her enough so she stays down. She doesn't want to knock her unconscious. And Tara won’t stay down!
SD: When Xena and Gabrielle were having the conversation about “If you believe in someone first, then it’s easier for them to believe in themselves,” Gabrielle walks away and Xena says, almost in an undertone, “Thanks.” I don’t think Gabrielle even heard her. Was Xena thanking Gabrielle for the advice or for believing in her?
R.J.: For believing in her.
SD: The quite ingenious, but time-con- suming-to-build beheading machine concocted by the bad guys. Where'd that come from?
R.J.: It came from budget — we couldn’t have any fights.
SD: It came from budget restrictions! (laughing)
R.J.: Yeah. Without a fight, the problem became how to have jeopardy without Xena. In the normal episode, they're about to be killed and Xena would come in and save the day in a fight scene. This was no action, no stunt coordinator, nothing, just them buried up to their necks. If you want the logic behind it, keep in mind it was Tara’s boyfriend who caught them. So, it was him in the commercial break who said, “No, let’s not kill'em. Let's do it this way.” He was thinking that Xena would get there in time to save them. That's the logic, but it came from budgetary considerations.
SD: Well, both reasons hold up very well. (laughing)
R.J.: Yeah, (laughing)
SD: The ceremony seemed to be based on the Catholic ceremony.
R.J.: I wrote it, and it was produced even more so, to be very similar to the Catholic ceremony. I don't think it's a daily sacrament for the believers in Apollo’s urn. I think it's a one-time thing. You go there to have your sins purged and then you go out and do good. And if you don't do good, then Apollo has no sympathy for you. Some people were saying it was too Christian, but almost all the Christian sacraments come from the Greek mystery religions. I have a great book called Mysticism and the Greek Mystery Religions.
SD: Is there an urn of Apollo?
R.J.: I made it up.
SD: Having seen “Forget Me Not,” we now realize even more why Gabrielle was looking for forgiveness. When was it decided that her betrayal in “The Debt” was out of jealousy and not done for friendship's sake?
R.J.: When I wrote “The Debt,” I always thought she betrayed Xena out of jealousy. That’s why I put the line in, “You owe someone so much, you would just throw away these last few years?” I wrote that for that very reason — to justify in my mind the psychology for her actions. I never talked to Renee about it and it’s Renee's character too, so I don't trump Renee. But in “Forget,” we wrote it that she had been telling herself it was for noble reasons and only just came to realize what her real feelings were. The deal with Ares was not there when I wrote “Debt.” That was Rob's idea when we did “Forget.”
SD: The “urn toss” seemed very similar to the “baby toss” in “Cradle Of Hope.” Deliberate?
R.J.: Yes. You get down to a fight and the whole thing has been about an urn. So what do you do? It was obviously a self-reference.
SD: When did it come to you that Gabrielle invented charades?
R.J.: I wanted them to be doing something together that was a contrast to Tara's regular life. I thought, what does a juvenile delinquent never do? Tara had just gone through this catharsis and I wanted a scene where she does something with Gabrielle and Xena that she wouldn't normally do that would be a really positive thing. Xena is probably not going to be a person who stimulates that kind of thing because Xena is real tough too. If it was just those two, they would probably sit around chewing tobacco. So it was “what would Gabrielle do?” Well, Gabrielle is a bard. For all her prowess with that stick, she still has poetry in her and she’s a reader and her head is full of literate things. So, let her invent charades. That was also why I came up with Xena and Gabrielle playing 20 Questions in “A Day In The Life.”
SD: I liked the expression on Xena’s face when she said, “We don’t know!” (laughing)
R.J.: Yeah. That was good. (laughing)
SD: Another great line was, “I knew you were evil, but you were obnoxious too?” Did you chuckle when you wrote that?
R.J.: I did. (laughing)
SD: I have a couple of leftover questions about “The Debt.” Xena saying, “That’s my piece of meat you’re reaching for.” And Lao Ma answering, “You’re wrong. I don’t eat meat.” I think you know how it was taken by some viewers.
R.J.: That’s the way it was meant. Absolutely.
SD: Ming T’ien saying about Xena, “Murder is in her blood, Gabrielle. Her soul. It is more natural to her than love.”
R.J.: Ming T’ien’s memory of Xena was back before she became good. So, his comment is no longer true. Our series means nothing if Hercules and Gabrielle haven’t had a positive effect on Xena. She’s now no longer a murderer. Love does mean something to her.
SD: Are you leaving more bits of future stories lying around in season three than you did in the first two seasons?
R.J.: Yes.
SD: Gabrielle’s beliefs are what is causing a lot of her pain now.
R.J.: There’s no question that there are people for whom great suffering and duress actually makes them purer, greater, nobler people. That’s who saints are. I definitely know they do exist. I've met them. But whether Gabrielle is one of those people is what the series is about and what we'll find out. That doesn't mean she is.
SD: Last time we talked, you said Xena and Gabrielle are in the room with you when you write. Can you describe the Gabrielle we’re seeing now?
R.J.: First of all, let me say that I love Gabrielle. I love that character. I spend a great deal of my time thinking about what we want to say about the human experience through Gabrielle because I think that's the one to say it through. Because Xena is a war criminal! She's never gonna be us. Gabrielle is us. And the things that Gabrielle is going through right now hurt me. I’m worried about her. I'm pained for her. But I know that that’s good for the show. Because people want to care and be involved. But I am concerned for Gabrielle and I want to make sure that whatever we put her through, it’s not in vain. That’s all I want to say without giving away too much. I want it to be meaningful. What she's going through right now is a question of faith. She's questioning a lot of her ideals. And I think it scares Xena, too.
SD: “Don’t let that light that shines on her face go out. I couldn’t stand the darkness that would follow.”
R.J: When I wrote that in “Return Of Callisto,” that is really my view of Gabrielle. For me, that’s the crux of the whole series. If the light in that character’s face goes out... I never want to put Gabrielle through things that don't have meaning and significance to her as a person and that mean something, hopefully, to the audience and what they go through. That would make me unhappy. But we’re dramatists and she's obviously gonna go through a hell of a ride.