written by Steven L. Sears & Chris Manheim
Part I - Steven L. Sears - Co-Executive Producer
Part II - Chris Manheim - Executive Story Editor
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 03
PART I
SD: You have a six-episode arc developing a Rift between Xena and Gabrielle and the reconciliation takes place in a musical. Was it always going to end that way?
Steven: It’s hard to say when we first realized that that was the way we were going to end it, but it was very close to the beginning of the Rift. We knew we were going to do a couple of episodes to wind up the Rift and get the characters back together again, but we never really talked about what the content was going to be. Rob had wanted to do a musical and we realized that would be the best place to wrap the story up. To do it symbolically through music.
SD: Why do it symbolically?
Steven: So much of the Rift has been symbolic between the two of them. To go from two best friends to enemies — there's a lot of stretching of the imagination to try to bring that to fruition and I think we did that in a very logical way, but it was within the fantasy of the series. To dig them out of that hole, what you’d end up doing is a lot of therapeutic scenes where they talk out their problems. And, quite honestly, that’s just not that interesting. But, to make it entertaining and to make it a little more succinct, music just does that.
SD: What can pull the heartstrings more than words and music.
Steven: Emotions are molded by music. You can’t help but be taken along.
SD: How did you and Chris set up the songs?
Steven: Whenever we reached a point where there was to be a song to accomplish a particular goal, in capital letters and a block paragraph, we would describe what that song was about. That was then handed over to Joe LoDuca and the lyricists.
People have said, “You just wrote the first act because the last three acts were all music.” But what Chris and I did was lyricize the dialogue. “Ding Dong, the bitch is dead,” was one of my favorite lines I actually didn’t think that one was going to go through. I thought everyone was going to say, that’s funny, but pull it1 I felt Rob was going to be the one to say pull it, but when we had the first script reading, Rob said, “I think that’s funny!” And it stayed.
SD: The songs went back and forth between you and Joe?
Steven: Right. Rob, R.J., Chris and myself would talk about if the lyrics hit the mark or didn't. And we had a few meetings with the lyricists for fine-tuning.
SD: Who were the lyricists?
Steven: The two people who wrote the lyrics along with Joe were Pamela Phillips Gland and Dennis Spiegel.
SD: How do you decide where to put a song?
Steven: When you write any kind of script, the characters have an emotional flow and you recognize that, at a certain point, the characters are reaching a climax where they have to address something between them. That’s the place for a song.
For example, the song that takes place in the echo chamber. That chamber was designed as part of the therapy. It's the old theory that when you're arguing with somebody and tossing blame back and forth, neither side is listening to what the other is saying. So you can't hear anything. That's the whole point of the echoes. And we wanted to bring that out at some point in the script. When we made that decision, we realized that’s a perfect place to launch into a song.
Before we even started writing, Chris and I had decided on about four or five levels that Xena and Gabrielle had to achieve to get to the end. Hatred was right at the beginning. Consummation of their hatred had to take place, but, obviously, if it took place in the real world, then one of them was going to be dead. So it took place in the world of Illusia. That's when both Xena and Gabrielle felt like they had gone home and then they had to confront each other. And that was to make the point of “where is home for Gabrielle?” “Where is home for Xena?” And the consummation of Xena’s hatred is when she kills Gabrielle in Illusia. So, by that one act, Xena had been taken as far as we possibly could to her dark side. That was the ultimate thing she could have done. The echo chamber was a level. And defeating hatred by realizing it's the love you have that can defeat it, is a level. The final one is, of course, “forgive me.”
SD: Why was Xena singing "forgive me” and not Gabrielle?
Steven: Well, this will cause a lot of debate — there are two reasons, basically. The very surface reason is that they had abolished their hate and yet there was one thing Xena had neglected to do and that was tell Gabrielle she had lied to her. On the surface, it's a shallow reason. But, on the greater level, Xena was responsible for a lot that Gabrielle went through. People might say it was Gabrielle’s choice to go along with Xena and that’s true. However, at a certain point, Xena took Gabrielle for granted. For example, during “The Deliverer,” Xena was so obsessed with Caesar that she wasn’t even paying attention when Gabrielle was in danger. She knew Gabrielle was always going to be there and never really thought of her as getting into a unique danger of her own. And the consequences had to be paid.
SD: Xena needed more forgiving because she was really the start of it?
Steven: Yeah, that was what we were thinking.
SD: “Home” for Xena is an army?
Steven: “Home” is where you feel the safest. And that’s bad for some people because they tend to run toward things that are safe. For Xena, being safe is going back to what she knows so well which is working with Ares and being a warrior.
SD: You said only about three-quarters of the script is actually there. A lot had to be cut. Can you tell us any of the scenes that didn't make it?
Steven: Just before Xena and Gabrielle were sucked into the wheel by the flaming tendrils of Dahak, there was originally a scene where Ares showed up and tried to talk Xena out of rescuing Gabrielle. Not the real Ares, but the one in Illusia. He actually stood between the two of them as Gabrielle gets dragged away and tells her this is what you want, let go of her, she’s gone. Xena turns her back for a moment, walks away, and then does a back flip over Ares to land and grab Gabrielle.
There was also a thread about the final torment that was Ming T’ien. Originally, we had implied there was a shadow that was following Xena and Gabrielle throughout the travels in Illusia. And that shadow ended up being hatred. We had to take it out mostly because of time restraints, but I think it worked better without it.
SD: I'm sure you’re aware that Xena dragging Gabrielle at the beginning evoked the most response from viewers.
Steven: It was brutal. It was difficult to watch. It accomplished it’s goal, but it was probably a little too much. What we wanted to show was that this was not a matter of Xena just getting angry at Gabrielle at the last minute. One delicate balance we had to play with was that if there was too much Ares, it would come out as if Xena has been taken over by him again. Ares was not motivating it, not clouding her mind. It was her!
SD: And Lucy choosing to smile during that scene? When she was shooting the arrows into Callisto in “Maternal,” her face was one of grim determination.
Steven: When she was fighting Callisto, she was the Xena we know. She was in control. When she was trying to kill Gabrielle, that was the Xena who’s the warrior. If you look at “The Price,” you’ll see the same face. When she was evil, killing was an emotional thrill for her. It was the ultimate joy.
SD: Rob's input into this — was there more from him than usual?
Steven: Rob definitely adopted this one as one of his pet projects. It was his idea to do the musical and when we got into it, he was heavily, heavily involved in what the feel of the episode should be. The whole tarot imagery came directly from Rob.
SD: Rob’s into tarot cards?
Steven: One of the things the staff has in common is that we've all got these weird curiosities. Rob will come in with the latest book he’s read or an idea and he explores these things. When we first started talking about doing Caesar, way back before “Destiny,” Rob had read about the kidnapping of Caesar by pirates. He wanted to do something around that. We’re going to be exploring the Triumvirate of Caesar, Pompey and Crassus in future episodes.
I don’t know how he got exposed to the tarot cards, but he brought in a book called The Book of Tokens: Tarot Meditations by Paul Foster Case, which we actually quoted in the episode when they were going through the water entering Illusia. If you look through it, it has all the artwork that we used as a basis for the costumes. These are based on the Rider Waite cards.
On page 106, you will find the actual drawing of the Wheel of Fortune which includes the snake, the sphinx, the eagle, the bull, the lion and the angel. The angel, by the way, was represented by Gabrielle in the episode. The Tower is on page 154.
SD: Was “One Against An Army” shown after “The Bitter Suite” to reaffirm Xena and Gabrielle’s commitment to each other?
Steven: I believe that episode initially came out of the idea of Xena battling an entire army. We based it around Thermopylae — a pass in Greece where the Persians defeated the Spartans in 480 BC. And the first question we ask after we have a concept is, where’s the heart? And what came out of that was the relationship between Xena and Gabrielle. What were the risks for Gabrielle? What was Xena willing to do? We ended up saying, if there was a choice between saving Greece and letting Gabrielle die, what would Xena do?
SD: And the answer is, Xena would save Gabrielle and Gabrielle would save Greece.
Steven: As far as Xena is concerned Gabrielle is her source and “if you're going to die, I’m gonna die with you.”
SD: Everyone noticed that Xena sent Argo away. And it didn't feel the same as when she has sent him away in the past. This seemed permanent.
Steven: There's a scene I love in Glory where Matthew Broderick gets off his horse, gives him a slap and the horse goes galloping down the beach. And you know, at that moment, that Matthew’s character thinks he’s going to die.
SD: Xena had to use another horse because Argo wouldn't drag Gabrielle?
Steven: In one of the earlier drafts, there was actually a moment where Xena got up on Argo and she refused to move!
SD: Have you heard fans are wondering about the brand that can be seen on Argo?
Steven: As far as I’m concerned, he got it by leaning against a stump! (laughing)
SD: You said Solan’s the one who brought Xena and Gabrielle into Illusia. His love for Xena, his recognition that the love between her and Gabrielle needed one more chance, he gave them that. How did he get the power to do this?
Steven: I think this is what we refer to as a “freezer” question. It’s one of those things that, if you really want to think about it, you've got way too much time. The idea is that if Solan was still alive, that would be a valid question. But he's dead. The rules change when you’re dead. Marcus proved that in “Mortal Beloved.” It's also not beyond the realm of possibility that Solan represents a greater power.
The key word here is “love.” When M'Lila came to Xena in “Destiny,” it was a form of love. Not necessarily that the character M'Lila was in love with Xena, but the whole purpose of Xena and the reason she needed to be saved or have another chance, was a love for people — a love for the world. Was it really Solan standing there? Yes, it was. Was Solan's power alone responsible for him standing there? Maybe not.
SD: So the whole thing takes place in Xena’s and Gabrielle’s minds. Falling off the cliff was real and then they wash up somewhere. But how they got to Illusia and exactly where that is - that we really can’t explain.
Steven: That’s what I can’t quite answer. If you want to believe it was in their minds, it was in their minds. If you want to believe they actually went to the place of Illusia, then that's where they went. The way I prefer to look at it (and this is the image I have — it’s not in the script and it’s probably not in R.J.’s or Chris' or Rob’s mind), is that Solan is watching this from Illusia and, at a certain moment, he starts to circle his arm and create a bubble. The bubble gets larger and larger and becomes this world of Illusia and he draws them right into it.
SD: The line at the end of the “Forgive Me” song — "the love of your love is you.”
Steven: There are a lot of ways to interpret that. I think, in its basic form within the song of forgiveness, it really means you can’t love others until you love yourself. And it wasn't directed so much at Gabrielle saying “you,” it’s more of a realization Xena’s made about herself.
SD: All the things that were done to Gabrielle — the violation, the birth of Hope, her killing Hope - these were all done to cause a Rift that could then be healed. In hindsight, was it, perhaps, a little overboard to use things that strong?
Steven: When we first started charting it out, I did have feelings that it might be too much. In retrospect, no, I don’t think it was at all. You said, “the Rift was created just so we could have a forgiveness episode.” That’s not true. The Rift was a natural genesis of the relationship. People have asked me, “When did the Rift begin?” And I say, “Sins Of The Past.” It’s been building since the first time they met.
SD: And this is such a strong friendship that it would take things like this to cause the Rift. But they were destined to clash because of the great differences between them in ideology and experience?
Steven: Yeah, but it’s more than that because you can also argue that their differences make them stronger. Xena and Gabrielle are two people closer than sisters. Yet people who have a sibling have all their lives in which to learn how to interact with them. They didn’t. It was instant intimacy. They were thrown together with their closest partner late in life. So they have an entire two decades of relationship that suddenly has been dumped on them. And how do they deal with that? So they’re going through what sisters take years to go through. They’re going through it quicker.
SD: And they’re doing it alone, on the road, with adventures and danger on all sides. They’re not doing it in some protected, nurturing environment.
Steven: Right. And... if there were no adventures, they would not be together. If they didn't have something else to focus on and something to join forces on, they would have turned on each other.
SD: That little white dog showed up on both Hercules and Xena on the same weekend. People have joked that the dog was just walking across the set from one show to the other and was written into the script! (laughing)
Steven: The dog is associated with the Fool and the Fool was Callisto in the opening. In fact, on page 6 of the Book of Tokens, you'll see a picture of the Fool and there’s the little dog. In tarot, however, the Fool is not an idiot, but the person who is totally honest. Callisto has never lied to Xena. For a mindbender for the fans, you can say that, personally, I always thought the little dog was Argo.
SD: Did you just make that up?! (laughing)
Steven: No! When we were working on it, I thought, well, everybody has their place in this episode except Argo. So I guess the dog is Argo.
SD: Was there a deliberate attempt to have a Maxfield Parrish influence — the blue and gold used in the backgrounds.
Steven: I’m trying to remember if Maxfield Parrish’s name came up. We discussed that particular style. The feel is certainly Parrish. I don’t know whether Robert Gillies used it directly as a model. It certainly looks like it, doesn’t it?
SD: The Looney Tunes connection - Callisto peering out of the circling disk.
Steven: That was deliberate. We did use that term when we described that scene. We said she "sticks her head through like Porky Pig.”
SD: Gabrielle riding into Poteidaia on a donkey - any religious significance?
Steven: No. We just wanted her to ride in on a donkey. There are only two of them in New Zealand that have Guild cards. One was doing a movie and the other one was available, (laughing)
SD: Someone on the internet said, “Did anyone notice that the shot of the dog barking at Ares’ castle was almost a duplicate of Toto barking at the witch’s castle in The Wizard of Oz ?”
Steven: You know, that wasn’t in the script. It may have been a total coincidence, but it just seems a little too coincidental.
SD: They reach Illusia through water, pass through a waterfall to make their final peace with each other and they end up in the surf. There were water images throughout the whole episode.
Steven: Water is the symbol of birth and rebirth. They were sent into Illusia with a chance to have a rebirth. And when they came out of it, they were born again, but not in a religious sense.
SD: And the veil of water?
Steven: There’s a purity to water. Gabrielle could walk through it because she was one with the water, she had a purity about herself because she had absolved herself. It’s sacramental water, confessional water, holy water — whichever way you want to look at it. But Xena still had a stain. So when she reached through, the water not only stopped her from proceeding, it burned her.
SD: Could Xena have ever walked through the water on her own or did she have to be pulled through by Gabrielle? At the end of “Forgiven,” she turns away from forgiveness as if it is impossible for her.
Steven: I know what you’re getting at. She could have walked through on her own. The point there is not whether she could go through or not. It was the fact that Gabrielle pulled her through. It was an act of Gabrielle’s that’s important. Gabrielle could have stood there and waited for her to come through, but she wanted her friend back.
SD: Xena has so much to atone for, I didn’t think she could ever walk through that veil.
Steven: The villages she’s burned and the people she’s killed, she’s not cleansed of that. We’re talking about what was between Xena and Gabrielle. This kind of thing was not about absolution for who she’s been or who she was. What it was was her last chance to live. Without Gabrielle, Xena would die. Maybe not physically, but certainly her soul would be dead.
PART II
SD: We've now worked our way up to “The Bitter Suite.” I've been asking everyone how they felt when they saw the finished opening and the dragging of Gabrielle.
Chris: You know, I wrote it, and I would have pulled way back from the violence. But Rob really enjoys this violent, evil side to Xena that she has been repressing for the last three years. There’s something exciting about that passion, that intensity of passion.
SD: You and Steve wrote this together. How was that?
Chris: I tell you what I noticed, it helped take some of the pressure off. This was such an important episode, resolving the Rift. I don’t know how Steve feels, but I felt thankful that I had someone to talk to about this. And Rob was so involved. I have to say, it was really Rob’s vision. There were times I felt like I was an instrument in his hands trying to understand what he was articulating and getting it on the page.
SD: Now that we’ve seen “Forget Me Not,” and know Gabrielle’s secret, why was she able to walk through the veil of water? Xena still had a secret which meant she couldn't go through the water until she admitted killing Ming T’ien and asked for forgiveness. So we assume, at that point, that Gabrielle is…
Chris: …completely secret free. Okay, I don't know if this would work or not, but Xena’s aware that she’s got that secret. Gabrielle has repressed hers. The veil is not a godlike thing saying, “No, no.” It's about themselves. The whole world of Illusia was a projection from their own psyches. Solan created it to allow them the opportunity, the last chance to come together again. But everything in that world was a projection of their own mental states. And because she had no awareness — until “Forget Me Not” — that Ares assisted her in getting to Chin, it didn’t stop her going through the water. She honestly believed she was free and clear of anything in Illusia.
SD: Callisto seemed to be Xena’s guide. Who’s mind does Callisto come out of?
Chris: Xena’s psyche, but she was in Gabrielle’s mind in the sweat hut.
SD: I assumed Callisto was real at that point.
Chris: No, it’s a projection. Gabrielle’s gone three days without food — it’s totally her hallucination. But in Illusia, Callisto is from Xena’s mind. The reason we chose Callisto to be Xena’s guide is because she's the one person Xena can trust. Because however Callisto has been to Xena in the real world, the one thing Xena could count on was Callisto hated her and never made any bones about it. Callisto never lied to Xena about their relationship. That’s why Joxer appears to Gabrielle. She can trust Joxer because he loves her.
SD: What did you think when you heard the story of the musical was going to be the reconciliation of the Rift?
Chris: I come from theatre and my first thought was of musical comedies. But then when the story was explained, I remembered all the dark Stephen Sondheim musicals like Sweeney Todd or Assassins (“Let’s do a musical about all the people who have tried to kill presidents!”), and realized what Rob was going for.
To me, music is the universal language. It transcends everything. And, in my more delusional states, I think that if you could just find, like Close Encounters of the Third Kind, the right way of combining notes, it might lead to peace. You never know! (laughing) If you think of sacred music, patriotic music — a melodic phrase can bring tears.
SD: Was there any part of “The Bitter Suite” you wish you could change?
Chris: I think it was a little confusing that Solan created this world for them; that he’s the one that gave them the second chance. In some earlier versions of the script, there was a clearer explanation. Solan had some lines that delineated who created this world and why.
SD: The opening with Ares and Xena — it didn't look like he was influencing Xena the way he did in “The Reckoning.” Was it ever written as Xena standing alone in the snow going through the agonies of loss?
Chris: No. Ares appearing was always there. We needed to give the back story. That was why Joxer and Ephiny have the talk outside the sweat hut.
SD: When you saw the finished show, what did you think?
Chris: There were so many people and elements involved — special effects, Joe LoDuca and the lyricists, choreography — and it was so far flung — parts of the show were being worked on in different states and different countries — that it was like walking into a dark room and feeling an elephant. I’m touching the body saying, “It’s a wall.” And someone else has the trunk and is saying, “It's a rope.” About three-quarters of the way, you go, “It's lost. Everybody has dropped the reins and no one knows what anyone else is doing!” And then it comes together and you go, “Wow!!”