written by George Strayton & Tom O'Neill
Interview with George Strayton
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 11
SD: What were you handed to work with for this episode in terms of these are the things we want to use and this is the story we want to tell. I know this was the episode where we would find out the father of Xena's baby.
George: We were told first there had to be a revelation that Callisto would be reincarnated as Xena’s child. That was the main thing. Secondly, because of Lucy's pregnancy and cutting back her schedule, she could only be in half the episode. Those were the two main objectives.
SD: Were you told to use Eli?
George: No, we pitched the idea of Eli's death and they liked it. We actually came up with several versions of the story and what you see is the one they liked.
SD: Was it intended all along that Eli would die and it simply happened in this story as opposed to another one?
George: Not necessarily, but it seemed like a good culmination to his character arc.
SD: Who is Eli for you?
George: In our minds, he’s a combination of Gandhi and Jesus. That’s not to say he should be taken that way by anyone watching the show. It's just that when we were writing that character, those are the people we were trying to think like. We read a book on Gandhi and non-violence for background material. And we coupled that with the spirituality of Jesus. Obviously, there were some elements of the script taken from Bible stories. We wanted to explore them as well as The Last Temptation of Christ. These are things we found interesting to work with.
SD: Many people viewed Eli as a prophet.
George: We didn’t want to follow Jesus specifically. We didn't want people to have preconceptions. What we were trying to do is explore some of the things about Jesus most people have seen, read or been taught. We were trying to get at what might have been in his mind. We don’t hear Jesus' thoughts in any of the passages of the Bible. Just what he said and did. So we were trying to figure out what his state of mind might have been.
We also wanted to make him human which is why we wrote the “Garden of Gesthemane” scene. We called it that when we were writing it. Where he’s contemplating what's about to happen and he's afraid. We wanted to show that human emotion.
SD: For me, and many others, the best scene in the episode was Eli’s death and the confrontation between Xena and Gabrielle: “The only reason that people like Eli exist is because people like us defend them when they won’t defend themselves.” “So Ares is right? The whole future is shaped by warriors?”
George: As soon as we decided we were doing this story, we started to talk about that conflict. We thought that was the crux of the episode in terms of the idea we were trying to explore. We weren't making a definite statement on what was right or wrong; just posing the question. I think it was Bob who came up with that specific wording that embodied that thought in one sentence. That was our favorite part of the episode, too.
SD: That's a very good question. Do you use force to bring peace? That argument has been going on for centuries.
George: It seems sometimes you need to use force to prevent force. Is that the right way. There's no peace there, but the ultimate goal is peace. So is that right or wrong? We don't know the answer either. We just thought it was a great question and a great forum to get people to think about it.
SD: Were there alternatives for the “father”?
George: From what I can gather, it was Callisto right from the beginning. They thought that would be the best way to go.
It was definitely decided during “Fallen Angel,” because you see the life force being transferred into Xena. But “Seeds” was our first episode, so we don't know what the discussions were previous to that show.
SD: For me, that completed the circle. When Lucy told me it would be Callisto, I thought that was perfect justice for both of them. Xena and Callisto destroyed each other’s lives and this was a chance to give back what they had taken.
Chris said, when I interviewed her for “Animal Attraction,” she had Gabrielle guessing Ares and Hercules because those were two of the possible alternatives.
George: We did something like that too. In the beginning, when Ares finds out Xena's pregnant, he says, “Who’s the father.” And Xena says, “Gabrielle.” We knew some fans had speculated it might be her. It made a great joke on Ares. And then we gave him the comeback line, “I would have loved to see that.” This was such a heavy episode, we were trying to find opportunities to put humor in and that seemed a perfect spot.
SD (laughing): Renee's take on that line was perfect.
George (laughing): They both played it so well. We were so happy with the episode in the end. And, honestly, when we were first working on it, we didn’t know if it would work.
SD: Whether the storyline would work?
George: Even if it was a good storyline. Did it pull your heartstrings. When I saw it, it pulled mine, so I figured it worked.
SD: The Dagger of Helios as a weapon that can kill a god.
George: Yes, they made a mistake. It didn’t look like the Dagger of Helios to me. (laughing)
SD: True, but why use the Dagger of Helios?
George: We try not to come up with too many magical weapons that can do away with gods. So I thought that dagger from “Quest” would be cool. And the fans would have a reference. It's something Xena would have known about. But when I saw the dailies, I thought, oops -
SD: You wondered why they didn't just go to the prop department and get the Dagger of Helios that had been used previously.
George: Yeah. It must be down there somewhere.
SD: Some fan made an astute remark equating the Dagger to a Swiss army knife - pull out one blade and it opens up the Ambrosia compartment. Another blade kills gods.
George (laughing): We had actually worked out a whole storyline for the Dagger that didn't make it into the final script. Our back story was that Xena took it because she knew what it could do. She wasn’t going to reveal it to anyone. She's the one who said it had to be hidden and gave it to one of the gods to hide. She didn't want to know where it was either. But she knew it existed and she knew she couldn't find it. She figured Callisto could.
SD: Xena has not had a great time with gods and she’s suspicious of them. Why would she believe in Eli?
George: She doesn't believe in Eli as a god and she doesn't think people should be led like lambs to the slaughter. She thinks people should have the right to defend themselves. Eli is preaching non-violence and Ares is on the way. Xena’s attitude is people should have the right to do what they want as long as they don't harm other people.
SD: Did I tell you I did an internet search for Twilight of the Gods?
George (laughing): I made it up. I just typed it one day and thought, “That sounds cool!”
SD (laughing): That explains why I couldn't find it.
George: In our story, Xena wasn't out to kill all the Greek gods. She was just angry at Ares. For killing Eli and for what he did to Gabrielle. A bunch of scenes with Ares had to be cut. There was one where Gabrielle goes to Ares and asks him to train her. Ares thinks this is great! But Gabrielle says, “No, we’re not friends. I don't want any relationship with you in any way. I just want you to teach me what you taught Xena.”
SD: When did this take place?
George: Just before Gabrielle goes to Eli’s urn. Ares was in the town rounding up all of Eli's followers to kill them. Gabrielle shows up and says she wants to learn from him. So he starts training her. He's fighting her and telling her how to think like somebody who wants to win a war. “You have to hate everyone. Everyone's your enemy.”
That's why, when Gabrielle comes into town later, Ares says he doesn’t have time for another lesson.
SD: Why did she seek him out and want to learn his ways?
George: Because she felt powerless after Eli’s death and Xena accusing her of not defending him. She's heard the same thing from Ares and Xena. That might is right. One of her greatest friends died right in front of her when she was trying to do the right thing. She did what Eli asked of her, but it feels wrong. She doesn't immediately go to Ares. He seeks her out because he feels her confusion.
SD: That’s the scene where she's throwing the sais at the tree?
George: Yes.
SD: Was she really going to join Ares?
George: She never thought of joining him, ever. Xena was a warrior once and Ares has similar abilities, techniques that Gabrielle would like to get a piece of. In Gabrielle’s mind, Xena and Ares both have the power to save people. Not power to subjugate people like Ares does. She's going to him to try to get what she thinks she can use to make the world better. Never is she thinking of joining Ares as an ally. Although Ares would love to see it that way. She’s gone to Ares to get power to use for good.
SD: Even though she did what Eli requested, she feels bad because he died. And nothing happened that proved to her his death served a purpose.
George: Right.
SD: “I did what he told me, but…”
George: Exactly. Her emotions are telling her she did the wrong thing in allowing him to be killed. Knowing that Xena was a warrior and had been walking the dark path for a long time and turned around and is using the abilities she gained in her darker times for good now. That seems like a viable alternative.
SD: I’m trying to remember what Gabrielle said to Eli when she was standing by his urn.
George: “Have faith in me. I’m not siding with Ares, not turning into an evil person. I’m trying to do the right thing and I’m thinking this is the way to do it now.”
SD: When Gabrielle and Ares first began to fight, I thought, that’s going to be tough to believe. But it worked and I think most of the credit goes to Renee.
George: I think that scene would have played better if you’d seen Ares teaching Gabrielle how to fight, but Renee was amazing. By the time we got to that scene, Gabrielle’s got half her mind like Xena and half like Eli. And she’s willing to fight Ares because she’s fighting for good.
SD: Obviously, neither Xena nor Gabrielle can outfight a god.
George: And Gabrielle gets her ass kicked! She’s about to have her head chopped off when Xena arrives. At the moment when Gabrielle has fought her heart out, she can’t win, we all knew she couldn’t win, but she fought Ares anyway. That was cool. That was Gabrielle. She regained control inside herself at that moment.