written by Steven L. Sears
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 27
SD: What story did you want to tell?
Steve: There were a number of stories going on in this episode, but ultimately, the episode was a love story. We had spun so many threads about Xena’s life that were connected to several incidents in her past and this episode was an attempt to bring them all together. They were: the birth of her son. Solan; the Battle of Corinth, which we had alluded to many times; her relationship with Borias, which played a major part in turning her away from being the Destroyer of Nations; the Alti story.
To clarify that, she was the Destroyer of Nations, then she became the Warrior Princess, then she became Xena. The Destroyer of Nations was someone who was influenced by Alti and wanted to dominate the world. The Warrior Princess wanted power, but she'd given up the illusion of dominating the world. That’s when Ares had his greatest influence on her as his goal was world domination through her. And Xena now, the character we know.
These stories all took place in the past and I had to tie them up into something cohesive and make them seem to have happened at the same time. And this story didn’t just use one flashback to illustrate a point, almost three-fourths of the episode took place in the past. The problem with flashbacks is that we already know what happened. The concern for the writer is “what’s the mystery for the audience?” Are we just telling a story to show you what happened back then? That could be boring. The audience already knows Xena survived that time and that Solan was born. The key is in somehow making the past story relevant to the contemporary story.
I had to come up with how to make that back story current. The past needs to have a stake in the present. What I came up with was Satrina - someone using Xena’s knowledge and tactics from the past against her in the present. If Xena could figure out who that was in her past, she could save the situation in the present. That gave the flashbacks a significance to what was happening in the present. From Xena’s point of view, she wasn’t just exploring her past. What was happening to her in the present time was triggering memories because the situations were so similar.
SD: How did you like the character and actress who played Satrina?
Steve: She was written as a potential returning villain. You notice at the end, we don’t know if she lived or died in the cave-in. But it didn’t happen. I did like the idea of someone who was not the physical equal of Xena, but had one trait that Xena did have which was that she could get inside someone else’s head. Satrina says, “I have this ability to get Inside of someone’s head.” A line that was dropped was Satrina saying, “It's something I’ve always admired about you. That you could do that.” I’ve always felt that that was Xena’s strength in battle - she could get inside the head of her opponent which was something that many successful generals and leaders have been able to do throughout history. Getting into the head of Xena and understanding her tactics would make you a pretty powerful opponent.
SD: This episode opens with Xena imaging the crucifixion of herself and Gabrielle. “Crusader” was the episode before this one and, at the end, Xena says to Najara that she doesn't want Gabrielle to know about her vision. Yet in this show, Xena tells her about it. You decided it was time for Gabrielle to know about this?
Steve: Yeah. This episode opened with Xena telling Gabrielle about the prophecy. I can't remember exactly why we decided to do it here. The interesting thing about this episode is that Xena believes in this prophecy. Gabrielle does not. Go back to the first episode, “Sins Of The Past.” Who was the believer in prophecies?
SD: Gabrielle.
Steve: Right. Back then, Xena was the pragmatic one.
SD: Gabrielle reacted with anger to Xena’s fears of this vision?
Steve: There are two things going on there. One was that Xena had kept it a secret from her. The second thing was that, what do you do if you’re told you can't leave your house because you’ll be killed? How do you handle that? Especially when it’s someone you trust and love and someone you believe is looking out for you. That person has basically said, “You are a prisoner. You cannot do anything.” So there was a lot of anger there on the part of Gabrielle. And she said to Xena, “Either we prove your prophecy is wrong and we move on or we prove that you're right and we die. Either way, it doesn’t matter. I can't live like this.”
SD: Gabrielle said, “I can’t afford to believe in your vision.”
Steve: Right. That’s where a lot of the anger comes from. And there's also the bit about, “Once again you’re trying to be protective of me.”
SD: Which, in the fourth season, Gabrielle is getting tired of?
Steve: Yes. If someone is being overly protective of you, your argument is, “Stop this. I’m going to do this on my own.” And the other person would say, “You can’t because it’s not a safe world.” And you would answer, “I don't care, it's the world I have to live in.” You have a great argument. However, if that person says, “I know definitely that if you get into your car, you're going to die. So I’m not going to let you get in it.” It's like pulling a trump card. Your response is either, “I don’t believe you, I think you’re lying to me to protect me,” or “It’s true, in which case, it doesn’t matter. I have to live my life.” There’s anger, but also frustration in Gabrielle.
SD: Xena’s been able to change a lot of destiny. Why was she panicking so much that she couldn't change this one?
Steve: I think we played this vision to be much more vivid and recurring. And I don’t think we’ve actually portrayed Xena as seeing a destiny and then changing it. We certainly played with the idea that she could deal with the Fates and alter people’s destiny. But that destiny wasn't known except in general terms. This was a very specific vision.
SD: And visions like this played a much greater part in the lives of people back then than they do now?
Steve: Certainly. But we still have to connect the story to our modern-time sensibilities. Destiny was a big deal in the world Xena was involved in. We had done stories dealing directly with the threads of Fate and this made it much more acceptable to our audience.
SD: In the past, Gabrielle might have been okay with taking care of the wounded in the hospital. But this time she headed for the battlements and wouldn't stay inside.
Steve: There were two things going on. One, Gabrielle points out the hospital is fine and doesn’t need her help. She knows that Xena’s request was just to protect her without overtly telling her to stay in the hospital. Secondly, part of Gabrielle wants to go out and willingly disprove that vision. If someone told you don’t cross the street, you'll be hit by a car, and you were angry enough, you might just go and stand in the street, just to prove the point.
SD: Gabrielle was so strong by the fourth season - she seemed different. I should ask Renee if she made any deliberate changes in her portrayal.
Steve: For us, there wasn’t any major leap. I think it was just a slow progression of where the character had to go. Not speaking for Renee, but just as an actor, it would have been very frustrating if this was the same character we'd seen in the first season. That wouldn’t have been enjoyable at all to play or to write.
SD: Xena and Borias - I was thinking that Xena is evil and scheming and demonic. Why on earth was Borias in love with this woman?! (laughing)
Steve: Fortunately, that’s the episode R.J. (Stewart) dealt with (“The Debt”). Why was he in love with her? Try to define love. He saw something in her she didn't even know was there. And, in this episode, I was trying to tie up a lot of themes that were started in “Orphan Of War.” This was also soon to be the mother of his child. As he put it, maybe they mistook love for power. But there was still love. I think it was power in the beginning for Borias. That was extremely attractive about her. And, the same can be said for Xena. She was attracted to his power. They were much more equal in “The Debt.” In “Past Imperfect,” Xena and Borias had split their army and hers was bigger and more powerful. She was much more in control at this point.
Xena says to Borias, “We became enemies the moment you thought there was love.” That says a lot about her. What it says about Borias is that at a certain point, he realized it wasn’t power, he truly loved her. It says a number of things about Xena. Love is something Xena couldn’t risk anymore because that’s how you “get” her. So if you say, “I love you,” you are now my enemy because if I love you back, I'm vulnerable.
This is in contrast to her contemporary travels where she’s obviously with someone she loves - using whatever definition you want. She's allowed Gabrielle into her life. And who's the only person who can hurt her? Gabrielle. So Xena is correct. If she loves, she becomes vulnerable.
SD: Although Borias is a very bad boy, the vulnerability he showed around Xena made him much more attractive than if he were simply an evil warlord.
Steve: Borias’ decisions on the battlefield were very pragmatic. You don't kill the Centaurs if you don't have to. It’s easier to make an alliance with them while we go attack someone else. Xena was so wrapped up in her destiny, anyone was fair game. Borias is a cold-hearted businessman. We may not like it, but we understand and accept that in him.
The way you change a bad boy is not by marrying him, but you have a better chance by giving him a child. You give a bad boy a child and they suddenly become a responsible, loving parent. Suddenly they have a little life they've created. And that's what we saw in Borias. His constant thought was to see his son. Because of that, he wanted to take Xena away from the armies, the battles. This brought something out in Borias that he never knew existed. That turnaround, that conversion, made him attractive to many of us. We saw his humanity and recognized it.
By the way, they had a son, as opposed to a daughter, because I had to defer to the fact that, back then, all males wanted to have a son, an heir. Borias would still have loved his child if it had been a girl. The thought of having a child changed everything in his life.
SD: The moment when Borias lay dying and Xena holds up the child for him to see was so sad.
Steve: Borias seeing his son is what makes the ending so poignant. That final fight was very brutal. It was horrific. And it was deliberately done that way to contrast Xena’s childbirth. Borias is lying there, dying, with a sword in his back, and with his last breath he says, “My son,” as he looks at the baby in Xena’s arms. That’s a heart-tugging moment.
SD: As you said, Borias is the pragmatic one. Xena seems a bit deranged, should we say. If you were a soldier, which leader would you have followed?
Steve: Xena would have offered the chance of more reward for her men because she took more risks. That's what armies follow. Xena says, “Let's attack Corinth and the Centaurs and we'll take home all the loot.” Whereas Borias says, “Let's make a treaty with the Centaurs.” Xena’s saying, “We can be rich and powerful.” She’s offering her men the same seduction Alti offered her.
They were not involved in a war of ideologies. This was a war of profit. These soldiers are interested in profit and power and Xena was the one who made the better case.
SD: Xena seems to be putting more faith in the Ixion Stone than in Borias’ experienced war plans.
Steve: Borias doesn’t believe in smoke and mirrors. He looks at Alti and the Ixion Stone as smoke and mirrors. He's interested in doing what has to be done. He’s a tactician and a strategist. He doesn’t believe in quick fixes.
SD: Why is Xena so fixated on the Stone?
Steve: Because those are the shortcuts. The Ixion Stone gives her the power of the evil Centaurs and she has to have power because she wants to be the Destroyer of Nations. Borias is more concerned about feeding his army.
SD: Who were the participants in the Battle of Corinth? I originally thought it was between the Centaurs and Xena's army and now I’m not sure that's right.
Steve: We had alluded to the big battle at Corinth in the first season and the more we alluded to it, the more it grew in my mind until I thought of it as the great battle in the third installment of the Lord of the Rings. That’s how I considered it. All the armies of the world coming together for this one battle around Corinth to decide the future. Obviously, we couldn't afford that. (laughing)
In my mind, this is what happened at the Battle of Corinth. Xena was going to attack Corinth and take it. The Centaurs had been brought in, believe it or not, at the request of the Amazons. The Amazons were also there to defend Corinth. Initially, it was a battle between Xena, Corinth and the Amazons. However, the Centaurs said they were going to stay neutral. They ended up getting involved in this particular battle. Keep in mind, this was my backstory before I wrote the episode. I had to reduce it quite a bit.
My original idea was that the Amazons were helping to defend Corinth against Xena’s army. The Centaurs were going to stay neutral. The Centaurs ended up getting involved. This particular battle destroyed every army that was there, including Xena's.
Xena no longer had an effective army where she could become the Destroyer of Nations. The Amazon Nation was destroyed. It became different tribes. Same thing with the Centaurs. As a consequence of this battle, the Centaurs and the Amazons hated each other. Because the Centaurs blamed the Amazons for getting involved and the Amazons blamed the Centaurs for not getting involved. I trace everything back to that battle. Somehow it all made sense to me.
SD: That works - History 101 Xena Style. (laughing)
Steve: Maybe one day I’ll actually write the history of Xena.
SD: That's a great idea. And include all the things that didn’t make it on the air. (laughing)
Steve: All I could write is the stuff in my mind. I know that all the other writers on the show had their own philosophies and ideas about where things started. I was probably just a little more anal about it. I had a discussion with one of the fans once about the tactic of the Battle of Corinth. I can't remember everything, but Sparta and Athens were involved in it. It was pretty elaborate with the Athenian navy blocking the coast and Sparta marching to the rescue to the Corinthians. Ah, well. A little too detailed for our series, I'm afraid.
SD: Makes for good interviews, though. (laughing) Borias says, “At what cost (do we keep on fighting)? Even with the wealth of Athens?” Borias didn't want to keep fighting?
Steve: Yeah, he wanted to be a dad! Remember, everything changed with that. Funny how that phrase “Everything's changed,” pops up in our stories.
SD: And Xena says, “You’re not in this for wealth or power.”
Steve: She knew he was in it for his son. That he was there as her ally only for the child. Now, what she mistook was that it was more than that. Borias wanted both of them - his son and Xena. He was more interested in his son. But he wanted to take both of them away. Xena couldn't accept that because, again, accepting his love would make her vulnerable. Also it would prevent the destiny that Alti promised.
SD: This wasn’t in the episode, but do you think Xena would have considered keeping the child?
Steve: No. I think that was an underlying thought, but there was no way Xena could have done anything else but give up the child. No matter how it would have played out, Xena changed when she had her son. It wasn't just seeing Borias dying while looking at his son, she changed as well. There was a new Xena. The changes I see in my friends who have children are amazing. Both for the mother and the father. What happened was what Borias had said to her about the child becoming a target for her enemies and seeing things a child should never see rang true. Now she understood. But even if Borias had said nothing to Xena, she still would have understood what danger the child was in. The question is whether she would have given up the child because it could be used against her, or given up the child to protect it. With what happened to Borias, and what I'd like to think about Xena, the answer was foregone. She gave up the child to protect it.
SD: She changed, but it didn’t make her turn away from being a warlord.
Steve: No, she didn’t go on about her evil ways. She became the Warrior Princess at that moment. At least in my mind. That’s when she gave up the illusions of Alti and being a world power. She still wanted to be powerful, but she now began to understand the cost of her desires.
SD: There’s a scene in the flashback where Xena orders Dagnine to kill the enemy soldiers right on the spot and has the bodies thrown into the water.
Steve: That was part of a larger plan that we didn’t have time to show. That particular flashback happened while the present-day Xena was destroying the dam in order to keep the town’s water supply flowing. When I write out the strategies for a battle scene. I really try to write something that would work. What happened in the past, that you didn’t see, was that the stream flowed into and through Corinth. That was their source of water. What Evil Xena had ordered her men to do was kill the prisoners so their bodies would float down the stream. That made the people in Corinth think the water was poisoned by these infected, bloated bodies. Then she did something we didn’t show at all. Xena had her soldiers go into the water and pretend to be dead bodies. As the bodies floated into Corinth, her men floated in with them and they attacked from the inside. That’s what Xena saw in her flashback and realized the enemy could be in the water - and they were!
SD: You got to bring Dagnine back.
Steve: He’s one of my favorite villains. I thought Mark Ferguson did a great job in “Orphan.” I got a kick out of his flip attitude toward killing and power.
SD: So how come Xena can taste the poison in the grain but the people eating it can’t?
Steve: Because she knows what that poison tastes like. The other people either thought it was bad porridge or, say, it tasted like cinnamon. If you didn’t think the porridge was poisoned, you’d think it had cinnamon in it. Xena knew what to taste for. Remember what she said? “Check the grain. This porridge has been poisoned.” Let's say they check it and there’s cinnamon in it. Then it’s okay to eat. But at least she had told them to check it just in case. She was anticipating the tactic of poisoning the troops.
In an earlier draft, I had written an argument between Xena and Gabrielle in the grain storage room. It was about Xena’s vision and, at one point, Xena was so frustrated, she put her fist into a grain sack. As the grain was pouring out, that sent Xena into the flashback. Then she comes back and tastes the grain and realizes it’s poisoned. To consolidate things, we removed that scene and had her recognize the poison from the porridge when the person was eating it.
SD: Santra flower and Kalla root - real or fictional?
Steve: Fictional. There are very few times when I’m dealing with poison that I’ll mention a real name because idiots out there might do something with it. There was an episode of Riptide that I had done back in 1985. It was a takeoff of the movie DOA although I hadn’t seen that movie and thought I'd come up with a great new idea about a woman who shows up and says, “Find thb person who killed me.” And everyone said, “Oh, that’s like DOA.” (laughing) Anyway, the idea was that a woman reporter has been poisoned. All of her symptoms were based on an actual poison, but I never mentioned what it was because I didn’t want to give anyone ideas.
SD: Why reshoot the story of Xena giving up Solan which was shown in “Orphan Of War”?
Steve: I have no idea. That was a discussion I had with Rob. When I originally wrote the script, I copied the scene and noted that we would just use the old footage. Rob came to me and said he was going to shoot it again. I asked why? He just said he thought we should. I thought the original scene was very powerful so I wasn't sure we should do it, but once he said he wanted to do it, I decided to rewrite it and pretend that in “Orphan,” we’d seen an edited version of the scene. At least by shooting it again, I could take the opportunity to add things to specifically reflect what we learned in “Past Imperfect.”
What I thought about later was that both Lucy and the director might have wanted to reshoot the scene and they would have been absolutely right. Lucy could have said, “I now have so much emotion built up in this episode from seeing Borias die, from having his son in my hands, that I now have a completely different emotional outlook and I want to be able to show that.” The director could have said the same thing. They both would have been right and, with that argument, I would have agreed without discussion. But I'm speculating here.
SD: You got to write another campfire scene.
Steve: Xena being lost in her thoughts of the past and Gabrielle being there for her. The fact that the shot of Xena walking away after giving up the baby was shot from above was probably a good idea because it could have taken away from the closeup of her face at the campfire and all the emotions that were going on inside her in the present.
SD: Do you have a preference for one version of Xena giving up the baby over another?
Steve: You know, there are bits and pieces of both that I like. They’re both very powerful, but for some reason, the look on Xena’s face at the end of the “Orphan” version hits me a little bit more.