written by R.J. Stewart
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 16
SD: So Rob calls you up and says, “The series is over, we’re going to write a finale.”
RJ: Right. He called and asked me to come down to New Zealand in early January, 2001, to write the final episodes. We met in his office and started breaking story. We knew we wanted to go to Japan.
SD: Why that location?
RJ: Rob wanted the story to take place there and I loved the idea. My all-time favorite Japanese movie is called Ugetsu.
SD: What’s it about?
RJ: It's a Japanese ghost story. There is a scene in that movie that inspired me to become a screenwriter. In the beginning of the story, one of the characters goes off to war and leaves his wife behind. When he comes home, his wife is waiting for him and it’s a very loving reunion. He wakes up the next morning and she’s gone. There’s a knock on his door and when he opens it, he sees an old friend. He asks his friend if he's seen his wife. And his friend tells him his wife has been dead for several years. It turns out the ghost of his wife has returned for one night because of her love for him. I said to Rob if we’re going to do a Japanese story, let’s make it a ghost story.
SD: And the next question becomes, who’s going to be the ghost?
RJ: If we’re going to do a ghost story, the ghost has to be Xena. It wasn’t difficult finding a reason to justify Xena becoming a ghost. We decided she would go alter a spirit on the Other Side. We then found ourselves in the position of trying to figure out how we were going to bring her back from the dead.
SD: That’s a situation you’ve handled before - having Xena or Gabrielle die and then come back.
RJ: Right. But then I said to Rob that this is the opportunity for her to make the ultimate sacrifice and get the ultimate redemption we’ve been withholding from her for years. Let's not bring her back to life. We didn’t go into this trying to figure out how to kill Xena. But it worked so perfectly for that story. For so many thematic reasons, this justifies the whole series if she redeems herself through her death. It was classic television and something I'm very proud of.
SD: And Rob said?
RJ: He looked at me for a while and I thought for sure he was going to say no and we'd move on to another idea. I even found myself thinking, “What a nutty idea I just had.” He left the room for a bit and when he came back in he said, “Yeah, let’s do it.” As we started to discuss the storyline, I was thinking that the unique thing about Xena was that this series' lead character was initially a villain on Hercules. She was a vicious warlord who became a good girl and got an order for 22 episodes. I always had problems with that. That's why I introduced the character of Callisto, so that Xena had to come face to face with what she had done in the past.
SD: After I’d seen the finale, I remembered the line Callisto said to Xena, “Have you ever been tried for all the things you have done?”
RJ: Exactly. If you remember the episode “Forgiven,” at the end, Gabrielle and Tara get forgiveness from the priest, but Xena won’t even come in the building. Won't allow herself to be forgiven. She feels the things she's done in the past shouldn’t be absolved that easily.
SD: Is death the only way to get redemption?
RJ: It’s not the only way, but it certainly is an incredibly dramatic way and that is what appealed to us. And I'm so glad we did it.
SD: Did you have any doubts?
RJ: That day I had some, but once I slept on the idea, I was very much committed to it. Rob has been tormented by it. But I think you should ask him what his issues were. We both love this character and he was questioning if this was the right way to end it. I felt it was.
SD: I was thinking about the line at the end of “The Execution” - Gabrielle said, looking at an old lady, “When I’m that age, I hope I'm knitting socks.” And Xena responded, “Ah, don’t worry about it. People in our line of work never get to be that age.” At any time during the six years, did you ever ruminate on how the series might end?
RJ: Sure, hundreds of different endings floated through my mind over the years but I wasn’t passionate about any until we stumbled on this one.
SD: Were any other scenarios considered?
RJ: Not really. The first draft that I wrote of Xena and Gabrielle on the ship at the end was pretty much what was filmed. I heard from people in New Zealand that Rob talked about moving that scene to the sarcophagus that Xena's brother, Lyceus, is buried in. I was pleased they decided to leave it on the ship.
SD: It has been an ongoing battle within Xena that she never felt she deserved to be forgiven for her earlier life.
RJ: Right. As a warlord, she committed atrocities. With the newfound moral view she acquired during the three Hercules episodes, which was solidified by her relationship with Gabrielle - shining that ethical, moral light over her previous life, she realized just how horrible were the things she’d done. She wasn't going to let herself off the hook easily. When the series started, we said she never intentionally killed women and children, but that hardly made her a saint. She left plenty of widows and orphans behind.
SD: I’ve frequently heard from viewers who felt badly about their lives and the mistakes they'd made. They took from the show - and from Xena’s life - that every morning you have another shot at getting it right.
RJ: Yeah, that's an important idea to me, that you can constantly reinvent yourself.
SD: And with Gabrielle beside her…
RJ: That was a perfect blend. I stepped into a really rich situation when I signed on for this series and I'm very grateful for the opportunity. There were many unique things about this series, but one specific stands out. The central character was based on an out-and-out villain from another series.
One of the first things I pitched to Rob was that Xena would be burying her weapons as the series begins. She’s become disgusted with who she was in the past and she wants to leave that life. She then hears a cry for help and sees a vision of what she has to do to try and redeem herself. From day one, that was always the way I saw this series. However, the way Gabrielle would eventually influence her ethically, morally and give light to the darkness of Xena’s soul, that had to evolve as the show went on and we learned as we went along.
SD: Gabrielle was not the typical TV sidekick and I ve always wondered how and why her character was developed as much as it was?
RJ: You know, we all just liked writing her that way.
SD: Were you affected by Renee's performance of Gabrielle and her physical presence?
RJ: Of course, absolutely. All the credit goes to Rob for having the vision of Renee as Gabrielle. I had never heard of her. I wrote the pilot and gave it to Rob. He said to me, “Renee O’Connor is playing this part.” I didn’t know who she was.
SD: She auditioned for the role even though he wanted her?
RJ: Yes. Renee read fine, but I can't say that she leaped out as the obvious choice. But Rob had such faith in her. After the first day’s dailies, I knew Rob had been one hundred percent right.
SD: Had you seen Renee's work in the Hercules movie, “The Lost Kingdom”?
RJ: I saw it after I wrote the script, but I don’t think her performance there suggests what ultimately she did with the part of Gabrielle.
SD: By the way, who was the “Friend in Need”?
RJ: Well… originally the title made reference to Akemi. But as the episode evolved, all the friends were in need. It became a collective title. It turned out to be better than it originally sounded. When we first started, we kept saying, “We’ve got to find a better title.” But as it turned out, that one was pretty good. It was Rob's title.
SD: Was there any reason for showing “Sins Of The Past’” and “Callisto” right before the finale?
RJ: You’d have to ask Rob - that was his decision. I thought it was an excellent choice because if you're ending the series, you might as well show the genesis. And “Callisto” is centered on the idea that Xena couldn't forgive herself and why.
SD: And “Sins” showed Xena burying her armor - a scene that is repeated in “Friend.”
RJ: Right. Thematically, Rob chose the perfect episodes to rerun.
SD: The finale almost seemed to be a retelling of the series in a stand alone movie form - from Evil Xena to thousands dead by Xena’s hand to burying the armor to the love between Xena and Gabrielle to dying for the greater good to the fire in Higuchi mirroring the fire in Cirra.
RJ: Rob told me two things before we started breaking story. He wanted to go to Japan and he wanted to do a back story about this young girl from Xena’s past. Going to Japan I loved. But I wondered if we could do the back story again as we'd already gone there this season in the Norse trilogy and “The Last Of The Centaurs.” But Rob was right because Xena’s past is such an essential part of her story. It was important in wrapping up the series that we go there again. The finale of any great television series should tap into what made it unique and special in the first place.
SD (chuckling): I love Evil Xena.
RJ: I do too because it’s such a fun contrast, but I love good Xena more.
SD: Was there any talk of leaving the door open at the end for a revival of Xena in the future? Xena was standing there with her hand on Gabrielle’s shoulder and Gabrielle still had the urn of ashes.
RJ: It was just a beautiful, poignant moment for me. It was a way to end it not to begin something else. However, we’ve brought her back to life before. Given the world we’ve created in Xena, I can think of 7,500 ways you could continue the story. (chuckles)
SD: You could have ended the scene on the ship either with the two of them standing together or, as you did, with Gabrielle alone.
RJ: We wanted to make it clear Gabrielle was going on by herself to be a great warrior on her own. The torch was passed.
SD: Was Xena really there with Gabrielle at the end or was Gabrielle talking to herself?
RJ: In the world we've been in for six years, Xena’s spirit is really there and Gabrielle is really talking to her. However, like all mythology, for it to have any meaning to any of us, it has to convert to our own sense of reality. Today not many of us really believe we literally speak to our loved ones who have passed on. But we speak to our thoughts of them, our vision, our memory of them, what we hold beautiful about them. I think it has to work on both levels to touch people.
SD: Did you consider using any other characters from the series in the finale?
RJ: Rob had talked about bringing back Eve and Varia. I can’t remember why we decided not to use them. However, had we done it, we would have had a real space problem in the story. As it was, tons of stuff got cut out.
SD (laughing): Ah... we need the director’s cut.
RJ: Yeah.
SD: Did you consider having Gabrielle die at the end too?
RJ: We did talk about it, but it was in one meeting and we rejected that idea.
SD: Why not have the two of them die together?
RJ: If they both die, then they’re together and Xena sacrifices nothing. The redemption of Xena had to be a sacrifice. What does she love more than anything in the world - Gabrielle.
SD: Xena staying dead was also a sacrifice for Gabrielle.
RJ: Absolutely!
SD: Picturing the scene with Xena telling Gabrielle she can't come back - just thinking of it is making my throat tighten. And it’s been two weeks. (laughing)
RJ: Rob did a brilliant job directing that episode - remarkable. He should be very proud.
SD: Akemi told Xena she needed to stay dead, but it was Xena’s choice to do it. Xena tells Gabrielle she can’t come back, but Gabrielle had the choice of whether to put the ashes into the Fountain of Strength or not.
RJ: Absolutely. We struggled to get all those choices in place. It was very important both of them make that decision.
SD: Why did Gabrielle agree? In the past, they’ve stopped each other from making that ultimate sacrifice.
RJ: Because she wanted Xena to have peace. Peace from the ghosts that tormented her. The line that the freed spirit of Akemi says to Xena, “You’ve redeemed me. You’ve redeemed them. You’ve redeemed yourself,” I wrote that in ADR (additional dialogue required). I'm glad I got to add that because it summed up what Xena was doing. And Gabrielle wanted that for her - as did Akemi.
SD: Akemi — a terrific actress, great presence. I really liked her. Where did the actress, Michelle Ang, come from?
RJ: She's an 18-year-old actress from New Zealand. We were in a production meeting in New Zealand telling everyone how difficult these episodes were going to be and the casting person shoved some photos down to us of potential actresses to play Akemi. From her photo she seemed so perfect. But pretty pictures have a way of raising unrealistic expectations. One day Rob came down to my office and said, “Michelle’s here. You want to meet her?” She was adorable, vulnerable, sweet and emanated this spiritual quality. There was no doubt in my mind she was the one. We went through the process of reading other people and we almost lost her to another job.
SD: She’s on a New Zealand show called Tribes?
RJ: Yeah, and she might have had to go on location for that show. I said, “Let’s sign her before we lose her or we’re going to regret it.” (laughing) And I don’t think Rob had any doubts either. After we'd seen the finale, I told Rob he should call her and tell her how wonderful she was. He said he’d already done so. She was remarkable!
SD: What was the relationship between Xena and Akemi?
RJ: Akemi was desperately looking for someone to love in life. Her father had destroyed her family and broken her heart. She wanted someone to save her and someone she could love and adore. Xena walks into her life. And Xena is Lucy Lawless - one of the most charismatic women on the face of the earth! Immediately, Akemi was hooked.
Xena meets Akemi after Caesar has broken her legs and crucified her. She had become this cynical person who couldn’t give herself to love. She’s been hurt too much. She's not going to let herself love Borias, Lao Ma. But this girl touches her in such a way that she allows herself to love her. Of course what Akemi is doing is using her.
SD: Yeah, that’s the tough part.
RJ: If you mean tough on Xena, that it was. When Xena is staggering down the street drunk, after she chops off Akemi’s head, she’s not only mourning the loss of her new friend, she's mourning having put her heart on the line again.
SD: And yet, when Akemi sends the messenger, Xena comes running.
RJ: Evil Xena probably wouldn’t have come and would have been reluctant to forgive Akemi. But the Xena who’s been under Gabrielle’s influence all these years, who was converted to good during her time with Hercules - that Xena is very touched by the pain of what Akemi did. And Xena is hardly judgmental, given her own past, against this kid who only wanted revenge against her father for murdering her entire family.
SD: She did use Xena, but you could argue she used her for a good reason.
RJ: Yes. And the Xena at the end of this series was such a veteran of human experience, had become so wise, she understood that Akemi could both love her and use her. Akemi is someone who touched her in the past. In the scene where Xena is teaching Akemi how to listen, Akemi says, “You hear the battle in nature, I hear the peace. I hope you’ll find the peace one day.” Xena knows Akemi wanted that for her and it moves her.
SD: Akemi knew who Xena was and she had skills Akemi wanted to learn.
RJ: Right. Akemi’s passion for Xena was very sincere. But part of her childlike way of looking at the world was that, “I will love the person who comes to save me and they will love me.” It was important for Akemi that this come to pass and so she would do everything she could to make it happen. She’s totally convinced the fates would bring this beautiful woman to save her and she also believed she would have to do some manipulating to make sure this would happen.
SD: Having written a story where Xena shows Akemi the pinch and she uses it to kill someone, would that be why Xena never taught Gabrielle how to do it?
RJ: Oh yeah. Gabrielle actually says, “I understand why you never taught me the pinch.” It probably wasn't even logical on Xena’s part. We all know Gabrielle isn’t going to use the pinch like Akemi did. It was a visceral thing.
SD: When did Akemi tell Xena she had to stay dead?
RJ: Okay — in the script it's a little more obvious. Akemi and Xena took the bodies of a heron and an owl to follow Yodoshi to Mt. Fuji. That scene was cut. Before flying there, Akemi says to Xena, “I have something to tell you.” It was scripted to be filmed as a long shot. We can t hear what Akemi is saying, but Xena looks shocked.
SD: Gabrielle was not on a wild goose chase with Xena knowing all along her guest to bring Xena back was in vain?
RJ: No, absolutely not. Akemi thought they were going to kill Yodoshi in the teahouse. That's when she would have had to tell Xena the bad news. But that didn’t work. Now she has to tell her without the mission being accomplished because she knows Gabrielle might get to Mt. Fuji before Yodoshi is killed.
SD: During our interview about “Fallen Angel,” I remember asking you, “These rules about Heaven and Hell, where did you get them?” And you said, “We made 'em up.” That would cover the rule in “Friend” that Xena had to stay dead for the souls to be in a state of grace? This is not something that’s ever come up before in the series.
RJ: Yep. It was a bit of a juggle, but we knew it had to be that way. If she could bring herself back to life and liberate the dead, she’d be foolish to stay dead. That would have been a different story - not the one we wanted to tell.
The whole key to why she had to stay dead was really very simple. We had read in some book about Japan that, at one time in their cultural development, they believed for the dead to be redeemed, the people who were responsible for their death had to be killed. That was a very revenge-oriented period of that country’s culture. Most cultures have that rule at some point. The eye- for-an-eye type of thing.
Xena was responsible for the death of the villagers. We've always said, in the different geographical and cultural regions we've visited, their afterlife is different. In this Japanese afterlife, Xena had to die and stay dead.
SD: I know our time is just about up. Is there anything else you'd like to add?
RJ: They asked me on stage, at the Museum of Television and Radio tribute to Xena, if I knew Xena was going to be a hit when I started. My answer was there were two reasons I thought we had a pretty good chance. One was the Hercules lead-in. But the other was I had seen Lucy Lawless play this part and I knew she was wonderful. Lucy is the key to this series.
SD: Not just the character of Xena, but the actress playing the role.
RJ: We all should be so grateful to her. It was very fortuitous. It’s not that the rest of us didn’t do a good job - John Schulian wrote a good part, Rob produced a great series and sold it. Everyone contributed. But it comes down to imagining if it had been Vanessa Angel playing this role. It was Lucy Lawless who's just an exceptional personality and a remarkable actress.
Dan Filie, an executive at Universal, once called me after reading a particularly good script and said, “RJ, the scripts don’t have to be this good. We’ve got Lucy Lawless in leather!” (laughing)