written by Hilary Bader
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 04
SD: This is my first interview with a freelance writer doing a clip show for the series. And, I might add, anyone thinking they can skip this show will be missing a major series plot development! Can you tell me the genesis of this story?
Hilary: The main genesis, of course, begins with the idea that they get to do one clip show a year because there are times when Lucy’s off doing a Creation Convention or something. Rob and Liz Friedman were thinking that instead of a straight clip show, they would use the clips to give an overview of the story arc that had played a major part of the third season and add a piece to the puzzle with Gabrielle’s revelation.
SD: I remember when I saw “The Debt” originally, and Gabrielle said “This person means so much to you, you'd throw away the last two years,” I thought Gabrielle meant that Xena was throwing away being good. It never occurred to me she was betraying Xena out of jealousy. Turns out that’s what RJ. had in mind all along.
Hilary: I think it never crossed Gabrielle's mind. There’s the duality in everything we do when we’re being charitable and we don’t want to think about the uncharitable side of why we’re doing it, i.e. “We want to meet that guy who also works at this charitable institution.” We find the justification because we’re human. And I believe Gabrielle believed, absolutely, at that moment, that she was doing it in the best interests of Xena. “I must protect Xena against herself. That's my job,” she was thinking.
SD: Renee said this was a real insight into Gabrielle for her — that Gabrielle could have that big a human frailty. She hadn’t gotten to that stage in thinking about the character yet. When she filmed “The Debt,” she believed Gabrielle was doing it for Xena’s sake.
Hilary: Renee is Gabrielle and as she’s thinking through the script, she’s focusing on the truth at that moment. Gabrielle, herself, didn’t know the real reason she was doing it yet. I think you also have to realize, by this point, that she's gone through a lot. And some of that is Xena’s fault. It is and it isn't. “If I agree to follow you no matter what you do and I get hurt, it’s not your fault.” On the other hand, “If I follow you someplace where you do something stupid and I get hurt, I’m going to feel it’s your fault. And then I'm going to feel bad about feeling it’s your fault.” There are so many layers.
SD: What did they give you as source material?
Hilary: They gave me all the episodes that hadn’t been on the air yet. “Bitter Suite” hadn't been filmed, but I did get to read it. Which was strange because without the music, you lose a lot of the emotional impact. When I saw “Bitter,” I thought it was the perfect way to play these incredibly big emotions. Because they were operatic in size and if you just said them, you’d feel uncomfortable. If two characters on stage were to say the kinds of things that opera characters sing to one another, you'd just cringe. When they sing it, you accept it.
SD: And the feelings that music draws out of you as well.
Hilary: Yes. And the humorous songs.
SD: How did Joxer become part of the story?
Hilary: Xena was going to be gone and you need another character to be with Gabrielle. Somebody on the outside of the temple. You don’t want to keep the whole thing in the cave. And my thoughts about the clips/memories was that the flashbacks were being used to punish her or to drive her to learn something. Instead of her just banging her head and remembering something, they had a purpose.
SD: And Joxer is someone who cares about her.
Hilary: Joxer cares deeply about Gabrielle and because the flashbacks are so dark, Joxer can add a bit of lightness. But even the Joxer story was a bit somber because of what was going on.
SD: When you’re writing two parallel stories - one dramatic, one humorous - do you write the story as we viewed it on TV or do you write the two stories separately and then integrate them?
Hilary: Everybody works differently, but I went back and forth. I was imagining it in my head as the finished product would play out and thinking “what do I feel is going to happen next.” You even feel the commercials — “I know the commercial is coming soon so…” And you know the viewers are educated in watching too and they’re going to make the same guesses — the syntax of television. The writer is sharing the rules of TV with the viewer. Even little kids pick up on it. If they see a button labeled “Don’t Touch,” the kids know somebody's gonna touch it! (laughing) You can use this shared knowledge as a shorthand and know that you don’t have to work as hard to make a point. Or, you can put in a twist against what you know the viewer is expecting to happen.
SD: I noticed a list of clips written in the script; some were used, some weren’t. Who makes the final decision?
Hilary: Not me. I threw in the general areas where it relates to what Gabrielle was talking about. I’m sure picking the clips comes down to the last minute because of timing the episode. You also want to get action in the clip scenes because action scenes pack a lot more impact into a shorter clip. Some choices are technical, i.e. Do these beats sound the same? Does this dialog sound the same? Stuff you can't know until it's all cut together.
SD: I guess that’s a question for the editors who might say, “You wanted these three clips, but we only have room for two. Which two do you want?” At the very beginning of the show, the line that struck me the most was Gabrielle saying she's prepared to forget everything she’s ever known to go into the temple. Which means she’s saying she’s willing to forget Xena!
Hilary: There are things that you write and then you realize that, accidentally, you’ve connected with something that was said previously. Here I wrote Gabrielle said she was willing to throw away her memories of Xena and then I realized this was a mirror to what Gabrielle accused Xena of doing in “The Debt,” being willing to throw away her time with Gabrielle; in essence, throw away Gabrielle. Gabrielle is in so much pain, she’s willing, at that point, to throw everything away to get rid of the pain - even Xena.
SD: What were the three rivers based on?
Hilary: The three rivers exist in mythology. There are four rivers that lead to the Underworld. The last river is the River Styx which we don't see because it had nothing to do with the story. They had such great names — Wailing and Woe and Fire — and they helped organize the script because there was a lot of wailing and woe in the story.
SD: Gabrielle lying on the ground after she comes out of the River of Fire was pounding her fists against the ground screaming, “You’re wrong, you’re wrong.” For one moment she was naked and then had her clothes on again.
Hilary: Everything was illusion here and this was supposed to symbolize that she was burning through her experiences. When she was naked, she was stripped of all that had happened.
SD: The hug between Xena and Gabrielle at the end felt tentative to me. Gabrielle did make a very large revelation to herself and an admission to Xena, but I found myself thinking that not all is yet healed between them nor within themselves.
Hilary: I can’t speak for future stories, but I think in this episode another piece was added to the closure. However, not necessarily everything about the story arc is finished because, clearly, you saw something and said, “Wait a minute…” But some things have been settled for Gabrielle.
SD: I noticed in the original script there was a bit of Xena with the priestess in the temple when Gabrielle’s memory bowl appeared in the cave with Ares and Gabrielle. Xena wasn't visible. The description read, “you just see a piece of her leathers and the chakram.” I assume this was to show that she was a viewer of Gabrielle's journey. She was aware of what Gabrielle was going through.
Hilary: I think they decided to go back to a version where Xena recognized that Gabrielle had to do this alone. Xena couldn’t be part of the solution because she was the problem.