story by Liz Friedman (Co-Executive Producer) & Chris Manheim (Co-Producer)
teleplay by Chris Manheim
Interview with Liz Friedman
The Chakram Newsletter: Issue 06
SD: You’ve had a lot of input into Xena for the past four years as a producer. How was it to actually put pen to paper or mouse to mousepad on this story?
Liz: It was a lot of fun, totally frustrating and hard work. Which are all the pluses and minuses of what, I would imagine, all writers go through. I actually co-wrote, with my writing partner, a Young Hercules this year. But I would not be so hubristic as to call myself a writer based on two credits!
The writer gets to play and say, “Hey, wouldn’t it be neat if the characters did this?” You make your own little universe. And then it has to be able to work within itself. People can give you great ideas and sometimes it's frustrating because you go home and try to make them work and they don't. You have to go, “Okay. I'm in this scene and I feel like this. What can I do?” And trying to make sure that, internally, it all makes sense.
SD: How did it come about that you wound up collaborating on this particular episode.
Liz: I knew I wanted to do a story this season because I'm always looking for ways to find something new and different and keep setting the bar higher for myself. Part of the reason I love this business is the constant learning curve. There's always something I don't know how to do which is nervous-making and really good at the same time. We were thinking about our early episodes for this season and the image came to me of Xena walking into Gabrielle's house in Poteidaia and there’s Gabrielle sitting surrounded by her family, but Xena realizes it’s Hope. I pitched it to R.J. but I wasn't thinking of doing it myself. More and more things kept coming to me and I saw Alien Resurrection and how that monster died at the end and said, “I'd love to do that.”
SD: And all of a sudden your name turned up on the sheet as the writer of this episode?
Liz: That's right!
SD: Was it very much different from your involvement in the stories as a producer?
Liz: The biggest difference was that I didn’t get to have the meeting, throw out a bunch of ideas and then worry about someone else doing the work. (laughing)
SD: This was a very important episode to the series, too. Somehow you had to get Gabrielle out of that lava pit.
Liz: Yeah. There was so much to do service to properly including what had been a part of previous episodes. At the same time, I wanted it to stand on its own as an interesting story. I started with the idea of that climax - the Destroyer killing Hope. My goal was that I wanted people to feel sad. That was all I wanted. When I got to that moment, I wanted people to feel there was a tragedy here. He’s just a kid. you know? He was probably about six months old.
SD: The look on his face and the noises he made when he realized he'd been tricked by Gabrielle into killing his own mother! It was heartbreaking. Beautifully done when you consider the actor was totally encased in a spiny rubber suit!
Speaking of children looking like their parents, with Gabrielle and Hope supplying his maternal genes and Ares for a father, what the heck happened?
Liz (laughing): You don't know what Dahak looks like. The Destroyer is the product of a really recessive gene not carried in the female of the line.
SD: This was very much an old-fashioned monster movie type episode.
Liz: I was thinking about Hope and Gabrielle's family. During the planning of “Sacrifice” and trying to figure out what Hope wanted to do, we came up with the idea of her having a baby with Ares and we thought it could be a monster. Then I thought, “Hey, put that monster in my story and that gives you something really neat.” Hope comes back and has this baby in the woods and people don't know. There’s this thing eating sheep and we find out it's her kid. And now, thinking about it, it's like there's no story without that thing.
I like monsters, but the limitation is that often you don't care about them. Callisto is the best bad guy in the world because you kinda see her point. She’s Looney Tunes, but she's right that Xena really doesn't deserve this reputation she has based on three years of clean living! What made this story interesting to me and made me want to do it is when I decided, if I can make it sad when the monster dies, then that's cool. That's worth chasing.
SD: After all, you've got Gabrielle being responsible for the death of her daughter and grandson.
Liz: Right!
SD: I was going to ask if you liked the finished episode and then I wondered if it’s possible, when you work so closely on a show and, in this case, know how it turns out, for you to enjoy the show as a viewer.
Liz: I did enjoy it. I felt a little more attachment to this episode because I had done the story.
SD: Has an episode ever touched you so much that you cried?
Liz: I cried when I saw “Maternal Instinct” the first time. When Xena finds Solon dead, that was pretty intense. And the campfire scene in “Callisto” makes me teary.
SD: We don’t see the back story of the Destroyer, but it certainly looked like Hope wasn’t the easiest of moms. The few scenes we did see between these two characters seemed to speak volumes about their relationship.
Liz: There was a whole dynamic that was totally the result of Doug Lefler's direction. Because of the beast's physicality, it can never hug its mom because it would hurt her. That’s what that scene is about where he keeps reaching for her. Hope isn't really being cruel so much as that it's just physically not possible. Thus, the first time they ever really have physical contact is when they're in their death embrace. I thought that was really neat.
We went back and forth a lot on exactly what kind of mother Hope was. How we would play that. We see signs that she's strict and she obviously has an agenda for her child. She's a bit of a stage mother. Rather than being on Broadway, she'd like him to kill Xena. But everyone has dreams - “I just want my son to kill Xena and dominate the world.” (laughing) But I also believe, and I think Chris would be with me on this, that she really loves that kid.
SD: Maybe because of the love she felt she never got from Gabrielle.
Liz: I think it's probably the only other thing besides Gabrielle that Hope's ever cared for.
SD: Hope was such a needy person. A character you could really sympathize with.
Liz: “Mom doesn't pay enough attention to me.” That's a reasonable thing to want.
SD (laughing): I've got lava pit questions here.
Liz: Oh boy!
SD: I'll bounce 'em over and you can either hit 'em back or let them go out the court.
Liz (resigned laughter): Okay.
SD: What was Xena doing in the lava pit?
Liz: She climbed down to see if Gabrielle was still there or for signs that Gabrielle might have landed somewhere before she got to the bottom. Given Xena's vision that Gabrielle's alive, she thinks, “Okay, so where was the last place I saw her? I saw her fall into nothingness, but maybe she didn't. Did I see impact? No. I didn't.”
SD: How did Gabrielle get out of the lava pit?
Liz: Okay, here's what I think. I think she fell down next to Hope. Dahak saved Hope with his flame. I think the impact from that flame rushing up knocked Gabrielle to the side where she fell on a ledge. I think she was pretty battered and bruised physically and emotionally and was in and out of consciousness for quite a while. I don't think she got out of there on the day she fell. And then she either found her way back up to the top or she found a small tunnel leading out.
When I was a kid, I used to read the Reader's Digest section about “Real Life Stories” like “I Was Stuck On A Mountain For Eight Days.” It would be about a person stuck for eight days because he was crawling out five hundred yards a day. I think Gabrielle was in that kind of condition. She found her way to someone who could take care of her or else someone found her body. More likely someone found her. Then she was in a hospice and couldn't get up and around to find Xena for several months.
SD: And she went back to Poteidaia because…
Liz: She wanted to see her family. And she thought that Xena might be there or maybe will have passed through and she could get information about where Xena was.
SD: She thought, “This is where Xena would look for me.” Xena and Gabrielle have no community, no neighborhood and she has to go somewhere.
Liz: Right. Maybe Xena went to Poteidaia to tell her parents she was dead because Xena believes she is dead. Would you really wander all around Greece looking for Xena or would you go to a place where there might be an intersection and at least you could get a decent meal.
SD: And a room with a bed that might still have your name on it.
Liz: Right. And all this does not need to be in the script. We go through this on every episode. If Rob, R.J., Steve. Chris and I can tell the story to each other and there’s a logic to it, then it doesn't need to be in the script.
SD: There's only 44 minutes to tell the story and you have to jump to the chase. If you’re doing a 6-hour mini-series, then you can do Gabrielle’s adventures crawling out of the lava pit.
Liz: Exactly.
SD: When did Xena first know the person she met in Poteidaia wasn’t Gabrielle?
Liz: I think Xena had her doubts all along. I don't think she was ever totally duped, but she was trying to find out what Hope’s game was. And I think she was 100% sure in the fight in the barn when the Destroyer went right by Gabrielle/Hope. But I think Xena’s spidey sense was tingling all along.
SD: The first meeting between Xena and Gabrielle/Hope was meant to be real and I believed it was, but emotionally it was missing something. And then, of course, we found out why. I guess Xena would have been responding to that lack as well. I could imagine her thinking, “There's something missing. She should be happier to see me.”
Liz (laughing): Yeah.
SD: Was Joxer always part of the story?
Liz: Yes. Early on Chris and I came up with the idea that Joxer is the guy your mother would love. That was what was intriguing to me. It's like when you're a teenager and the guys you want to go out with are the really dangerous guys who don’t go to class and wear leather jackets. And then there's the guy in the preppy letterman sweater who you think is a dweebazoid. But your mother thinks he's an awfully nice boy. Gabrielle's mom says, “And he seems awfully fond of you, Gabrielle.”
And who would Xena tell what she thinks is going on? She has to have somebody to whom she can say, “Here's the situation, here's the danger, here's what I'm gonna do.” Otherwise the audience won’t know what’s going on. That's why there are sidekicks. Either the heroes mutter to themselves or they have pets they talk to. (laughing)
SD: Speaking of parents - here comes Xena into Gabrielle's home. A fan said, “Xena looks like the leatherclad, rock 'n roll, motorcycle-riding date who has just come knocking on the door - much to the family’s chagrin.” The last time Gabrielle’s parents saw Xena, she was responsible for their daughter leaving home. And look what’s happened to her!
Liz: Yeah, I don’t think Gabrielle’s parents are real wild about Xena. Chris was the one who really nailed how to play them and what the differentiation between Dad and Mom was.
SD (laughing): And Lucy’s toe-scuffing, lip-chewing portrayal.
Liz (laughing): That was all Lucy. What do you do when you’re in someone’s home and you’re uncomfortable? You know you’re not wanted, you know why and you know it’s justified.
SD: And they don’t know the half of what their daughter has gone through!
Liz: Exactly!
SD: Xena says to Gabrielle, “I could have had faith. You would have. I should have known you would survive.” Why should she have known that? The woman fell into a lava pit!
Liz: Their story wasn’t over yet and Xena felt she should have had more faith in that. I’m not sure it’s a rational thought.
SD: My destiny is not to be without Gabrielle. So that line comes from their relationship?
Liz: I think so. I think she feels Gabrielle wasn't killed, but I didn’t go down there and find her. I shouldn’t have ever gone to that place in my mind where I believed she was dead. Which I think isn't an entirely rational line, but I think that’s good.
SD: The Destroyer is stabbed by Xena's sword and Hope is stabbed by her son’s spike. Are they really dead?
Liz: They both have some degree of mortal blood in them. I know people believe that Hercules can only be killed by Hind's Blood. But I think that's actually just insurance. We never had Hercules be stabbed through the heart and survive. Maybe a quarter mortal blood is all you need if you hit the right spot.
SD: Xena said when Hope was young that she could still be killed. And we know the Destroyer is young. That might be the answer to why he could be killed by Xena's sword. And perhaps he's the one who could kill his mother.
Liz: My gut tells me they're probably dead, but you never know. These characters have minds of their own.
SD: Someone pointed out a similarity between the ending of “Sins Of The Past” and “A Family Affair.” In “Sins,” it was Gabrielle asking to go with Xena and in “Family,” Xena is asking Gabrielle to go with her.
Liz: It was unintentional because it never occurred to me, but that's kind of neat. That’s pretty cool. I wish we were that clever! (laughing)
SD: Do all monsters go back into hiding when the sun comes out? It seems fortuitous.
Liz: You can't sustain a monster attack for the entire length of an episode. If it just keeps coming, coming, coming, at the end you're exhausted. There have to be periods where the story takes place.
SD: It also occurs to me monsters aren’t as scary in the daytime.
Liz: That’s another fine point you have there. (laughing) Big rubber suits don’t look so good in the sunlight.
SD: The reunion scene was really important to the people who have followed the series, lived through four months of reruns and especially after what went on between Xena and Gabrielle last season. Was that an important scene to write?
Liz: Oh, yeah. It was huge and Chris did a great job. We talked a lot about the specifics and the philosophy of how do you react. Somebody who you loved vanished and you thought they were dead and now they’re back. What's the perception of what that would be like? I think we went with the idea of trying to make it very genuine. I think if there's a little differentiation, as I see it, the first meeting (between Xena and Gabrielle/ Hope) is your perception of what a reunion would be like. You'd think you would see that person and you'd be just so happy. Whereas I think emotionally cathartic moments can be a really happy thing, but a lot of times you end up blubbering like a baby and you’re a mess. So that was one of the ideas behind it.
SD: And the chase in the forest with Xena and Joxer seemingly heading in the same direction.
Liz: You know where that came from? Silence of the Lambs. Jonathan Demme does that brilliant scene where the FBI is raiding what you believe to be the bad guy's house and you’re cutting to him hearing the bell coming up the stairs and then he opens the door and it's Jodie Foster standing there all by herself. And you realize the outside of the house was not the same as the inside. In film, if we see a house from the outside and then cut to the inside, we think it’s the same house. I thought, we’ll put all these people in the woods and send them heading in what seems to be the same direction.
SD: Where are Xena and Gabrielle now In their relationship for you?
Liz: I think they are pretty well past the big Rift after “Maternal.” I think they have really worked through it and are trying to put it behind them. But the trick of things is that you can’t ever undo what has been done. You can’t make it as if it never happened. It did happen. And there are probably even ways in which their relationship has been strengthened because of it. Because they had to have a loss of each other. That's the only way you can realize how much someone means to you.
SD: Is the light in Gabrielle's face going out for Xena?
Liz: I don’t think so. I think there is always going to be a difference in what they’ve done and what they've been. Even though they have this shared experience together, Xena spent all those years living in a kind of darkness that I don’t think Gabrielle will ever know. I have a very good friend who’s a recovered alcoholic who’s long, long time sober. And I forget sometimes, but there were all those years of experience she had dealing with that and I'm never going to understand that. No matter how much we have in common, that’s still there. Gabrielle still represents this person who leads her life according to certain ideals and principles.
SD: Xena really needs her now.
Liz: Right. I think Gabrielle's her moral compass.
SD: And the fourth season is the journey of Gabrielle?
Liz: Right. What does this mean? When you've had a limited amount of experience, how do you find meaning in your life.
SD: And how can I stay with this woman when the more I'm with her the more I do things that are totally against what I believe.
Liz: Yes, that is a struggle for her. But I think Gabrielle feels a hole in her life that is totally separate from her life with Xena. What does life mean?
SD: What she would have felt growing up whether she was with Xena or not?
Liz: Yes. “I have to find a philosophy for myself. And is it the same one I would have found if I wasn't with Xena?”
SD: In “One Against An Army,” Xena says, “Even in death, Gabrielle, I will never leave you.” And yet, in recent episodes, we have Xena leaving Gabrielle behind in a hospice and then giving herself up to a sentence of life imprisonment. Xena seems to be doing everything she can to leave Gabrielle.
Liz: It is the conflict within Xena that “Gabrielle is the person who makes me whole, but I think I'm going to bring about her ruin.” That is a conflict. I think it's supposed to be. For any person in that situation, it would be a conflict. The question of fate and whether you can avoid it and change it is obviously one for the ages.
SD: And in this instance, it's in the hands of the writers.
Liz (smiling): That's right. Ultimately, what I think Xena's saying is that she and Gabrielle have such a connection that, even if they're apart, they're not apart.
SD: Their hearts will be together.
Liz: Right.